How to Use the Tight End Position in Football | FBCP S11E06

TRANSCRIPT

[00:00:43] Daniel Chamberlain Welcome back, coaches, this is the football coaching podcast. I am co-host Daniel Chamberlain. I’m here with Joe Daniel as always.

[00:00:50] Joe Daniel What’s up, man? Talking about my favorite, my favorite, my favorite position, the first offensive job I ever had.

[00:00:58] Daniel Chamberlain I think I wish that I had an offensive job that wasn’t just receivers with a manual. This think of how to coach receivers that have been great. I wouldn’t know what to do with that. I didn’t use it. That’s what happens. So tonight we’re joined by none other than the Ron Mckie. How are you doing, sir?

[00:01:14] Ron Mckie I’m doing well. You all chose the perfect expert to talk about Tight end. Oh no.

[00:01:20] Daniel Chamberlain We’re just making sure that you were refreshing on things that maybe you had used less in the most recent time.

[00:01:29] Joe Daniel Can you just bring on like, you know, some tight end worshiping double wing coach who’s like, you got to have three of them on the field at any time.

[00:01:36] Daniel Chamberlain Yeah. Twenty-three personnel or bust?

[00:01:38] Joe Daniel Yeah, we got to have we got the full. You know, we want all sides of the argument.

[00:01:43] Ron Mckie I’mma bring it. Bring it hard. All right.

[00:01:45] Daniel Chamberlain So if you haven’t figured it out by now, tonight we are talking tight end in all variations, maybe even tying it into each back a little bit. But you know, we talked about that a couple of weeks ago, so we’ll try to stay away from that as much as we can. But we’re going to talk about why you need to tell you what exactly does your high school tight end look like and kind of how to incorporate one into your system regardless, if you run heavy, pass heavy, whatever it is, you think that you want to do with your offense. I bet there’s a use for tight end for you. You can also use it in the Pistol power offense system.

[00:02:16] Joe Daniel There we go. Yeah. So before we get started, will pay the bills. Pistol power offense system is included as part of JDFB Coaching Systems, where we use a tight end a lot, but you don’t have to. We also don’t use a tight end sometimes. We also split the tight end out. JDFB Coaching Systems include five complete coaching systems 4-2-5 Defense, 33 stack, 3-4 defense system, which is just been just about completed. It’s an update for 2022 and also the 4-3 defense system, and you also get access to the full pistol power offense system. It’s all for the low, low price of $1. To get full access, go to join.JoeDanielFootball.com. And with that, let’s talk tight ends the greatness of tight ends.

[00:03:00] Daniel Chamberlain Yeah, we’ll talk about why you need a tight end first. I have been in a system that completely relied on one and one that you really didn’t have to have at all in the Flex bone. So I can see both and I understand their value. I think the first point and this is because, you know, it’s high school were run heavy. Everybody was run. The ball needs to run the ball. Let’s be honest, extra.

[00:03:22] Joe Daniel Ron is already upset. Ron is already upset over here

[00:03:26] Daniel Chamberlain Look at him. This is the clip. This is the clip that’s going on the tweeters right here.

[00:03:31] Ron Mckie I don’t agree with that philosophy that you have to run.

[00:03:35] Daniel Chamberlain Continue so extra numbers for blocking in the run game. That’s what we’ve used it for in the past. That’s what it’s been beneficial. The few offenses I’ve been kind of indoctrinated into. That’s what we used them for. We didn’t have a receiver tight, tight ends, for sure.

[00:03:50] Joe Daniel So you’re using blockers. There’s multiple roles for this.I’ll let you go first. You’re not a big tight end guy.

[00:03:58] Ron Mckie I’m not. And the reason why is because when you bring in, I’m under the philosophy that if you bring more people in on the line, defense can too. And that’s when defensive coordinators earn their money and they’re a lot smarter than me. They can play the games, do all that stuff. And to me, it kind of messes up with the blocking rules sometimes because now you have your core five offensive linemen and now you’re bringing in this other guy. And if you are bringing that tight end, at least at a high school level, this where I’ve been at, he has to know both the blocking schemes and the passes. And I mean, I don’t know about you. I may have geniuses, but our offensive linemen, they mess up and they have to worry about just blocking pass and run. Well, we’re bringing in sometimes the tight end as the guard on pass, sometimes as to help out on a run, sometimes in the past protection, if something else is like that. And that’s just a lot at the high school level to put on a kid. I will say, though, that when I have used tight ends, I’ve used them as a receiving threat to put them down and has just, Hey, you’re still doing the same thing if you’re flexed out. You’re just now up and down, still running the same routes. And I found that that works a little bit better because for some reason, the defenses that I have gone against, when you put a hand down tight end, they just forget like he’s eligible and it kind of opens up the game a little bit more. But I I just don’t like bring in extra guys in the box. That’s just me. So it’s kind of the opposite argument like, you know, Daniel, you were talking about extra numbers in the run game. You don’t want those extra numbers in the run game. I don’t just because I think it cleans up the box and then I myself can help and do something like that. I mean, there’s nothing worse than they put like a four and five and in a nine. Out there, then it’s like, OK, I want to run this play, should that, I hope the Tight End remembers that on this play, double teaming on the other one, he’s solo blocking the non are I literally had one time we are running counter, he pulled. I’m like, Why are you pulling on counter? Man, that’s not what you do, but still pulled. And it was just, I’m not a fan, as you can see.

[00:06:03] Joe Daniel So do you think that this is related to the fact that spread coaches can’t count past six?

[00:06:10] Ron Mckie Definitely. Look, definitely 100 percent. We’re we’re stupid enough to know that our were smart enough to know that we’re stupid. So it’s like, Hey, if I can, I can put this guy out there. And that that’s why I personally believe that they like the H-back, because then they can move him everywhere, not the hand down tight end. Because hand down tight, you’re kind of limited in what you can do if you want to do that now. I understand the concept of hand down tight ends. I know Art Briles kind of did this any time he saw a he was going up against a team that was an odd front. He ran a lot more hand down tight end when it was even you’d have the back, you know, I can understand and I’ve done that too. Like, Hey, I want to know where that fourth guys coming. So put my hand out now I’m dictating to the defense what they can and can’t do. I know you still do all this crazy. But again, it’s just like, why? I understand if you’re a 32 army guy and you want everybody in a phone booth and you look around. But if you are a spread coach and you want to spread it out, to me, the tight end put an end there is counterintuitive because now they’re bringing someone else in the box.

[00:07:14] Joe Daniel So where where we are using the tight end, we are using it for extra numbers in the blocking game. Because when I look at your defense, I think, OK. And again, pistol power offense, just it’s a pro style. It’s a it’s a tight end & H-back, right? One back said Tight end H-back. We got two receivers split out, whether it’s twins, whether it’s pro, you’ve got to put somebody over top of them, right? So now there’s two guys outside in in my world. When I look at a defense and I look at the umbrella I look at, you’ve now got to have two guys outside of them, right? Two guys, two guys outside of the box. So between the receivers and tight end offensive line H-back at that point, if I want to run almost everything it’s going to be, it’s going to be inside of those guys because I’m not going to try to out-leverage your force player like that. To me, that’s just unless you put him in position to be out-leverage. I’m not going to try it out leverage. So now I’ve got four guys outside and I’ve got nine inside, so that’s where my numbers. And if you don’t match that, if you bring your force guy in too tight, if you you know you’re forced guys into tight, then I’ll go around. I’ll play action if they start getting involved, all that kind of stuff. And that’s where the tight end H-back has to be a dual threat in some way. But I guess for me, that is a big consideration is I want those numbers in the box. I want to be able to. I want to have nine guys in the box. And if you have, if I can get you to eight, then I want my nine. I don’t want you to have nine. If you have nine in the box, I’m very upset. I’m pulling our quarterback and I’m saying like, what the what? What is happening out there? Why have you not completed a pass? I’m not a proponent of running the ball against a loaded box. If you give a loaded box we need that. We have to do something else. So that’s where for me, having that tight end and that things, we’ll talk about what what a tight end looks like. He is legitimately a blocker. He can block. And so that’s where there are years when I have not used the Tight end, and it’s because I didn’t have a guy who could block. And we talked about this with the H-back. I’ve had tight ends that couldn’t catch, but they looked like they could, and that was good enough. I’ve also had tight ends that couldn’t catch or run. And everybody knew it. And in those cases, just like we talked about in our H-back episode, I had to sub them. And so I would have in those years, which I didn’t like, but I would have a lot of times. He’s been a below average receiver and we talked about, you know, I’d set the protection because he is a check release. We’ll talk about that. Just talking about the run game. He is an extra lineman for me and if all I have is a sixth lineman who’s not an athlete. And I just don’t have that guy. Then I will personnel sub. But to me, the right tight end is not just extra numbers, but like I said, I like the numbers but he’s a sixth offensive lineman, and that’s what I’m going for.

[00:10:22] Daniel Chamberlain When I when I think about using a tight end, it’s really just to give my self an additional bubble to run to. I, like a lot of coaches, want to run to the bubble and that means you run into the shade five side and the other side, you’re going to have to leave alone. But I, as a defensive coordinator, I don’t put an extra lineman on the field when there’s a tight end. I just slide my defensive end out which most people do. 4-2 system, we used to go put him in a six and pretend that he can always just cover his gap and then, you know, 4-3, you’ve got him out in the nine. So that’s easier to kick. It’s easier to get up under the ramp. So that’s where I’m seeing that gap scheme. Let’s hit the bubble and go to the house. So Ron, I know in your way of thinking like, you’re just trying to air it out anyway, why would you want to see this when you really want to run? But in my way, it’s like if he’s there and I know he’s there, then I can read that I can have a rule for it and we can. And here we go, right? Let’s get as many yards we can. I’ll have to worry about who’s forcing or where it might come from. I know where he is and where he’s going to come from.

[00:11:19] Ron Mckie And I guess that’s just because you all live in that world a lot more than I have. I think it’s easier to run when it spread out. That’s to me. That’s it. And I know that again, I can’t count as six, if there’s six in the box, you know, kind of something you bring that seventh guy in or 8th guyt. And then it also I think it’s easier to throw than run, throw to run than run to throw. So if they do bring eight or nine people in, and I’m trusting that hopefully I practice enough with the quarterback to throw the ball that he makes those completions. And I really we really haven’t had a sixth like our sixth offensive lineman is utility, so has to pick up for someone else, like if I bring him in as a tight end and then someone gets hurt. But now he’s the fifth guy. I don’t have a backup and me my whole game plan is just SOL because and I also made sure not to us a lot because I know last time I was on, I kind of like this is a family friendly show.

[00:12:22] Joe Daniel Yeah. Who, who? Who is the last one that somebody, somebody beat you somebody. Somebody is way ahead of you. We took the clean tag off a long time ago.

[00:12:36] Ron Mckie But what I’m saying is, if you know, he’s the six and now he has to go in, I don’t have a backup tight end or if I do, I mean, that’s the slappy of a slappy. So then my whole game plan is just out the window. And I know, like some people put their second or third best running back, my running backs are small, like they’re not going to go in there. So the quality of kid that I have dictates whether or not I had one tight end like a true tight end like legit could spread them out can bring them in. He’s not playing at Western Kentucky, so that that that was the only time I could do it. And he told me that he got that offer because they saw what we did in our offense. Like, I was able to put his hand down good back, and he was smart enough to know the routes and block just the Nationals like he came up to me after he signed as like Coach. Thank you. They actually came to me and were like, Saw what you did? He liked what you did. That’s why we offered you that. And that made me want to pat my own self on the butt. But I’m sorry, pat my own stuff on the ass. I got to get that honor up real fast. But hey, I don’t like it, Mike, and it’s probably because I’m a horrible coach. Like I didn’t. Where do you put them? I was going to say it, but I’m glad I’ll say it. Like I said, I’m one of the now. I’m stupid. So do you do you put him all the time with the offensive linemen? And then when you throw him in on seven, on seven or have a play, he’s he’s awful. Are you saying, Hey, let’s put him in a lot more seven working with the wide receivers and stuff. But then when we go running, he’s head down and just falling all over. I wasn’t really able to strike that balance of where he’s he kind of got lost in the shuffle when we’re doing practice. So.

[00:14:16] Daniel Chamberlain So your point about throw in the run that really ties us to our next point and that is giving your quarterback a receiver at a more comfortable depth. So now we’ve talked to high school quarterback harms many, many times. I remember Dominic Frank said that he just completely shuts out a guy if they’re on a guard, if they have an ax to the field. I mean, they can just man him up because the ball is going right or they just play inside leverage because that ain’t the ball’s not going over their quarterback, making that through. And so yes, you can use them as slot and had a slant every time, but by alignment, you may have a guy right there. If you’re holding him up with his hand in the dirt and hitting him or pop out or whatever it might be, that’s a little harder for a linebacker. That’s a traditional linebacker to cover or whatever route you want to put him on. But maybe it’s a sign that the linebacker running with him, right?

[00:15:00] Ron Mckie Yeah, a lot of that. I love that.

[00:15:03] Joe Daniel Yeah, the the tight end in our offense, he’s never been a feature receiver and but he’s always been effective. And I think that just the nature of the routes, yeah, he’s always, you know, he’s running a shoot route or flat route or, you know, or whatever you want to call it. Maybe he’s running a little. We call it a we call it a hook, but it’s, you know, a little a 10 yard turn around. It’s sometimes he runs an out like a five step out. He’s, you know, the only thing that really goes down. Field, because we haven’t hit a corner route in God knows how much I try to run smash and I want to run it, but we haven’t hit that corner out. No matter how open it is in years, but we, you know the only thing the Tight end really gets hit on of any sort of depth is a seam route that’s still supposed to be thrown, you know, 12 to 17, really, it’s not supposed to be thrown deep down. The field was thrown right over top of a linebacker drop. So, yeah, I think he does get in that area where it’s a it can be a a comfortable throw. And what, you know, one of the things I like that I don’t know if I like him as much split out all the time is he’s a big target because I am using I am, you know, we’ll get into personnel in a minute. But I like having a big target. I like having a body and that’s why I try to run, try to run some routes where he’s, you know, the quarterback is getting to see him getting to see some numbers with him. But, you know, I like that he’s a big target. I like that he’s a guy that can take a short catch and run over a couple of people and get some extra yardage. So there’s some benefits of him in that respect as well.

[00:16:45] Daniel Chamberlain And I kind of think of the Play Action Pass a lot, too. So when you’re talking to a comfortable throw, if you can play action one way in that Tight end is just eking out number one linebackers read and play action. They’re going to come fill the gaps because it’s high school ball and you run and he’s just right there at four yards. Your quarterback maybe takes two or three steps if there’s a lineman in his face or whatever, and end is crashing right over their head. It’s almost a screen depth, right? Like, he can just hit this very easy target. Maybe there’s a guy in the zone there, but I just feel like that’s a that’s a really easy throw at a comfortable distance, and the Titans run in the same way as him, so he’s not going across body or anything extreme.

[00:17:23] Joe Daniel Yeah, maybe he’s a little easier to hide than say, you know, if you’re using a split out, go around, if you’re using a, you know, a shallow ones like that. Is he easier to hide than than like a drag from a tight end?

[00:17:33] Ron Mckie Oh yeah. The direction on the tight end are unbelievable because also if you run shallow cross and the hand down tight tight end as running. I stole this Andrew Coverdale as short as the edge so that the dragger that’s coming across, you know, there’s really nobody in that flat area. So if you can drop it off, it works well. Well, we had there was one year where we had a kid that wasn’t fast at all kind of big, slow as molasses, couldn’t block a wet paper towel. But we put his hand down and we did a lot of pops. We did a lot of flat routes, so we would run inside zone and just released into the flat and read that. And at that end, crash quarterback, which is poor and throw it. And he made it. We made a living off of that. And now it’s easier also in y cross, because he’s already hand down. He’s closer to get across to the other side of the house. Whereas if you was flanked out, that’s a hall sometimes.

[00:18:26] Daniel Chamberlain That’s another 10 yards or so, right? Like, that’s a good distance.

[00:18:29] Ron Mckie So he can’t get that. So I and I go back to the air raid. It originally started to back and downside it, you know? So I think everybody was with a tight end to backs at that time, and it was like revolutionary that they were just throwing it all and the gun was revolution. If you go back, you know, everything’s circular. That that actually works. But if you look at the NFL, all the good, tight ends they’re not blocking for. I mean, for the most part, they’re hand down and they’re catching everything. So because the offensive coordinators, you have to bring another guy in. But if you bring a man that opens it up, throw. And that’s that’s what I’m saying with Tight end, bring a man to throw, don’t bring him in a room.

[00:19:10] Daniel Chamberlain So flexibility, I think we’ve really covered. I mean, we’ve talked back even some here tonight. So well, we’ll be it up. Too bad, but just mainly because it leads in the personnel, right? You need a guy that can kind of do a little bit of all, no matter if you want a pass or throw, you can use a tight end, a passer through pass or run. You can use them. The flexibility is there. So I think we just go straight into personnel.

[00:19:31] Joe Daniel Well, let’s well, Ron mentioned it, but I do want to mention one other thing that our tight ends do is that we use a seven man protection scheme, and I’ve studied five man protection schemes and six man protection schemes. And I just maybe I’m scared. Maybe I’m a wuss. Like, I like the seven man protection scheme. We have to check releases. So most of the time we’re getting five out or we’re getting we’re getting five receivers out in the route, but he doesn’t. He only has to pick up. I think this is important to note in the past protection because you mentioned like, he’s going to be a pass protection, he’s going be run blocking, he’s be running routes. There’s really only one look that he has to pick up, which is a rusher off the edge. It’s pretty rare. So he’s usually got almost always has the widest rusher, and we’re no different than I don’t think anybody in high school football is like, No, we want a seven step drop. We want to go through a five step progression. We all want to get the ball out quick. So we’re all playing and get the ball on, you know, two seconds, whatever. Two point one to two point two point eight the latest for us. I mean, he’s only blocking the widest rusher. He’s only doing that when that guy has walked up like. We know he’s coming because if he’s if he’s at depth right out there outside and he comes on the snap, we should be we should be fine. So he’s picking up the guy who shot because he’s he’s usually the backside jack release. He’s not the front side, the the running back as the front side check released. So he’s the backside check release. We just got to get a piece of him. And it does. If you’re if you’re like me and you’re scared of pass rush, we have a guy who can, you know, flexibility he can run block. He’s usually run blocking a defensive end, not a, you know, not a three tech. He can pass pro. And it’s usually a blitzing OLB who’s showing it. And we just got to get a piece of him and and he can you can catch a football. So there is a serious amount of, I’d say, even more so than the H-back because he’s usually a better run by, I mean, he truly works as an offensive lineman. In fact, a lot of them have a lot of mine have been an offensive line convert. Some kid just like finds athleticism that we’ll talk about. But that’s I do want to mention that with the flexibility is having the extra guy in protection when you need him. Yep.

[00:21:46] Daniel Chamberlain So what exactly does your high school tight end look like? We’ve had all kinds. Last year was probably more prototypical tight end. One of the taller kids on the team had pretty decent hands, but he was thick. I mean, the kid could block with the best of them that we had, which we didn’t see anybody to college play ball or anything. But it was their right and we ran a lot of zone runs. So he was he could do what we needed him to do. I don’t know that he had the movement behind the line. We ever tried to run any counter. Anything gameplan was we could use him to pull because he was better than our guard or tackle, but not not the best. Trying to run down the line, he caught a few touchdowns, though, because once again we could just hide him where he was. But depending on your scheme, you guys have already said it tonight and it’s generally if you’re going to run block with him, he’s going to be your sixth offensive lineman. Hopefully with a little bit of athleticism, but generally your six offensive linemen.

[00:22:40] Ron Mckie I want to say some about that, though. Usually, I mean, if we’re saying six offensive linemen, that’s like your six worst offensive linemen. Yeah, I was going to say he’s not my six offensive linemen like. So when you and I’m not, I’m not picking on anybody, that’s that’s generally what people say. Like, you can find a backup guard or a backup tackle to be a tight end and help you. But they’re not good enough to make the starting five rotation. So why then do we put them in when I could say my fourth best wide receiver could be a little bit more explosive than this guy who we’re bringing in to block is not good enough to start to block for us. That’s the mental gymnastics that I can’t seem to get when a lot of coaches, because I catch a lot of flack on Twitter about doing stuff like that, and it’s like, you know, you need a fullback, you need a tight end. I don’t have those guys like it. If I did, yeah, sure. Whatever, whatever. No, actually, no. I’d be like, What are you going to be a guard then? Or You’re a fullback? You’re going to be my linebacker and you’re just going to pump pop people. But when people are saying, Hey, bring the second or third Stringer and do it to me, that’s putting the team at a disadvantage because they weren’t good enough to make the original 11 or the original five. Now we’re putting them in. And as a defensive coordinator, I started on the on the dark side. I’d be like, Oh, that guy’s a sloppy. I’m going to go after him like he. He wasn’t good enough to block as a tackle or guard, but now we’re going to put him at tight end, and now he’s going to pull on a kick out or he’s going to down block or something blocking scheme was that he wasn’t good enough as the other five guys and I’m going to get off myself.

[00:24:21] Joe Daniel We went back when I was more focused on the dark side back before I’d ever been in office of coordinator. I’d been a little bit of an offensive. I’ve been an offensive line coach, but I wouldn’t say that I got that far with it right at this time and maybe done it for a year or two. And I was trying. I was figuring things out, but I was still primarily a defensive coordinator and I was a defensive coordinator. I played a team that looked like us on offense right there. We’ve been running. We’ve been running. I was an offensive line coach when I started being offensive line coach. We were running this one back. What if you want to call it this one back East Coast Missile Power Pro style offense, right? Tight end H-back. And we weren’t. We weren’t that good. We were good and we had a great running back. We were good when we had a solid quarterback. We were good and we had some good offensive linemen. I don’t I don’t remember who are tight. Ends were up to this point, but they weren’t. They didn’t stick out in my mind and I was off to blanket. I played against a team who look like us power counter inside zone, outside zone, and they kicked the snot out of us. I mean, I had a defensive band. We were based four two and the defensive end was one of those guys who’s a sophomore and he was a physical freak. But, you know, he he looked the part, but you know, he was pretty early in his. Element as a player there, Tight end just beat the snot out of it. And to be honest with you, to that point, Ron, everybody had played against either had the tight end was always the coach’s kid, right? Who like he’s got to learn roots and he’s got to learn to run block and he’s got to do all this. So hey, coaches, kid who’s like, you know, not the best athlete, not the coach’s kid who’s the starting quarterback, but the one who’s like the sixth offensive lineman or the fifth receiver. You can tell he’s not his dad’s favorite. Yeah. Like, he’s out there because mom is going to be so mad if he comes home and isn’t starting for his dad, right? So that was what so I’m looking at this defense I’m playing against is offense and I’m like and a lot of people were running spread by then, and everything else isn’t that long ago. And I’m looking at this offense and I’m like, this kid. This kid looked the part of this defensive end and I mean, just getting slaughtered. I looked at the kid up that was playing tight end, and I talked to the coach eventually at a clinic and he was like, Yeah, we moved. He’s like, That kid was like, all region tackle or something like that. And he was a good athlete. He was an effective enough receiver. He could catch a football right and he could run. You know, he’s not fast. He’s not going to burn. Anybody can catch a football. I will not put the sixth lineman at Tight end now when I will use the sixth lineman is what we talked about before. If I got a guy, this is probably more likely to be with the H-back than with the tight end. I would probably, you know, we talked about what the H-back. I got a guy that can run in everything. And then if I really need him to to to run block, then I can just sub if he just can’t do it at all. That’s when I might use the next offensive lineman because it’s a substitution thing. It’s a, you know, even if it’s a one, a one beat, I would say more likely my tight end is the third, just just to throw a number, the third or fourth, depending on who the center is. Best offensive lineman. And that’s where I’ve had the most success. Or he’s the the other situation is he is the most physical receiver or the biggest receiver. That’s a tough guy. He’s either he cannot be. So I agree 100 percent with Ron. He can’t just be your six linemen. He can’t be a guy who’s a weak run blocker, but also a crappy pass catcher. He better be good at something like he better be good at something. You can’t be mediocre at everything. So I’ve had a guy who I had and I’ve, you know, absolutely fortunate to have two receivers that were All-State, the third one who eventually was All-State when one of them graduated and moved him back out. He spent a year at Tight end and he God bless him because he got 28 catches that year and he should have had 80 because our tight end, you know, no matter what he does, he’s never going to be the featured receiver. And they’re also two other guys catch them all over the place. But he he did a good job, but he was a receiving threat. People had to. I could put him. I could do as much with him on the backside of the play right. I put him over here and run, run the other way and I could get a safety down over top of him if somebody focused, if somebody realized who he was. Now a lot of teams didn’t realize who he was, and then he had catches because they thought he was the coach’s kid, you know? So I will agree that he has to be. He cannot be just your sixth lineman. He’s either got to be a physical run blocker. And I would put him in the top two or three or top three or four run offensive linemen, usually going to have my usually what I end up having is the game with the right hand quarterback. My number one guy is my left tackle, my number two guy is my left guard, my number three guys, my center. Where that can all change depending on the center, is the guy that needs to be the center. He could be the number one guy, but he needs to be a center. He’s my, you know, my right side. I coach them up. And then that tight end is the best or is the somewhere between those first three and him. But he also has to be the one who’s got some athletic ability. And I can usually I’ve managed and I’ll talk about where I found those guys. I feel like I’ve talked enough. I talk about where I find those guys, but that’s that’s absolutely for me. He’s not the sixth lineman.

[00:29:48] Daniel Chamberlain So when you’re scouting for, say, scouting, when you’re when you’re evaluating your guys and you’re looking for what, what, what is the most important skill in my eyes, it’s blocking, but that’s because that’s what I’ve used them for, right? So he can’t be a non blocker. You don’t care how good his hands are if he can’t block. He has great hands. You’ve got to exercise. So is is blocking the most important skill of a tight end or where what he’s looking for? What are you prioritizing? tHere’s the most success that I’ve had with this position, and I’ve had this guy out of the last eight years, 10 years I’ve had this guy, probably unless they have the time he shows up. And then the other half is a receiver. It’s the most physical receiver, but the ideal. I can tell you exactly what position he plays on defense every single time. He’s Mike linebacker every single time he’s Mike linebacker. Sometimes he’s tall. Sometimes he’s not. I’ve had a I had six foot two, 225. He’s he was his ceiling was D2 as a as a linebacker, he’s long snapper Virginia Tech now. So I mean, he had he had the talk. This was a good football team, but he was always the backup lineman. I didn’t move until his senior year. He was the sixth lineman because he was the starting Mike linebacker. And then it was like, All right, senior year. I can’t have this guy. And he started me. Somebody always gets hurt on your offensive line. He probably started two or three games a year, his sophomore and junior year, his senior year. It was like, I can’t. Where can I get him on the field more? He also just kind of blossomed athletically, like he’s like coach going to come to seven on seven and I’m like, OK, whatever. And then he’s out there like catching balls on 7 on 7 I was like, OK, you’re going down to my number one offensive lineman who on that team. He’s a Division One player as well. FCS player, he was an athlete, too, but he was the number one offensive lineman. So he didn’t move. Thought about it, but he didn’t. He was number one. So I’ve also, I mean, the last year we had two different ones. It was the mike in the will guy. They both of them and the mike ended up being the starter towards the end of the year. I mean, he’s he’s a he’s a D3 type kid. But physicals all get out, couldn’t catch, couldn’t catch. So we had the personnel that when he was a crushing block, he was a four year starter at linebacker. The will will probably either end up being the tight end or the H-back this year. You’ll also end up being the mike he could catch. He had to learn to block what he had the body to do all this stuff. That’s that’s the ideal guy. And that and the other guy that might end up being our tight end this year. He was our right tackle last year. He was young. He was a sophomore. He’s a good athlete. I think he’s going to blossom as an athlete. The more, the more work he puts in. But I’ve done that too, and I’ve taken that guy moved him out. Now that depends on somebody else coming in who can play some offensive line because he’s not at that level where it’s like, I can’t, I can’t lose him unless somebody else. I will also add one more thing. You talk about Ryan like, I can’t get that guy, you know, coaching that guy. I’m arrogant as hell as an offensive line coach. I can take. I can take the coach’s kid and I can make him the starting right guard. I’m 100 percent on that. So I’m not worried about having a having to take the sixth offensive lineman and make him the fifth one. I’m not worried about that at all. I’m arrogant, my coaching on the offensive line. So but I don’t think it’s that hard to do. I think, you know, I think I can I can help other coaches do that. But that’s a consideration, too. I don’t mind taking a guy with offensive line. I can get somebody else ready.

[00:33:23] Ron Mckie And that’s why you’re not only beautiful, but a hell of a lot better coach than I am. I can’t. And like you said, though, I agree if I’m going to use a tight end to me, the tight end is similar to the linebacker on the defensive. Like, you can’t be scared, you’re putting a lot on them because, you know, as a former Mike linebacker in college, I had I was the quarterback of the defense, for the most part. So he has to be smart. He has to know everything. And I just haven’t been fortunate to have kids like that. And it’s just it’s difficult enough to find the perfect person for every position. You know, you got to have the fastest God wide receiver, best hands, or the quarterback has to be Jesus Christ himself reincarnated in a football form right there. You know, if you are the prototypical and you got to have a stud running back and then tight ends furthest from my mind. When you do that, usually most people don’t build their offense around a tight. They just happen to go, Oh, where’s frank at? Where do we put them? I don’t know. Man, he’s a tweener. Let’s put him a tight end. OK, yeah, yeah. Let’s do that. And I to me, that’s how you find your tight end you have that tweener is not good enough to be an offensive lineman and but he’s not also good enough to be a wide receiver. He’s kind of because we did. I’m rambling, but we had a decent guy that could have been a really good tight end. He’s probably going to maybe lower level D1. He’s like six, six and everything like that. But he was our right tackle and he was really good at tackle and we couldn’t put him at tight end because we had nobody to replace him at Typekit tackle. So, you know, we’re kind of like, what do we do this on? And we got a lot more wide receivers than we do tight ends. I mean, like, how many titans do you had? I know you have to Daniel. How many one two at the most? We’ve got a handful of wide receivers. And I mean, you could say what you want defensive coordinators pissed on a leg when you put four down there and they’re never going to let one just be wide open and forget it. And so that’s to me, that’s like, Oh, I can spread them out and I could just burn a one for one. That’s fine. It’s ten on ten now. That’s still four more than I can count. So I’m. I I don’t know. I just can’t find five kids.

[00:35:42] Daniel Chamberlain So what’s really funny is that the going into the second year and my first school, which of course I changed in between, but we had a kid that played on the offensive line, but he wanted to be one of the skill kids. And so his his area that he decided he wanted to be was a tight end. And so it was like, Well, if you can show me you can get the footwork and you can, you know, pick up your agility and hand speed and you can catch a few footballs. We’ll talk about it. It was like a reward system, like, OK, you know, enjoy. It kind of goes back to what you’re saying with, I can take out my fifth. I can lose an offensive lineman, let him be tight end because I can replace him. That’s basically what the game plan was. If you can be this much better of an athlete next year, that much better of a football player. Fine. I’ll let you play Tight end because you’re just another offensive lineman anyway, but you feel like a school kid when it’s seven on seven time, you get to go play. So that was a way we found them to.

[00:36:31] Ron Mckie I feel defensive guys, too, but when they get down to three points, that’s an end and offensive line. Two points and ass up, cocked, ready to go. Type of stance. Like, OK, that’s I like it, but not on this side of the ball. That’s on the other side.

[00:36:44] Joe Daniel I’ve never had a problem. I I had ball last year. Look, we had I don’t even think we had 30 kids on the team. They had won three games in the previous three years. You know, we didn’t blow the doors off coming out. We won three out of four finishing, but we finished four and six. I didn’t have four at the start of the year, but by the end of the year I did. One of the things about those guys is they’re learning in our system. They’re learning to down block. They’re learning to zone block. They’re learning to block. They’re learning, you know, we weren’t ever base block, but they’re the outside of a combo. So they know how combo works on a on a on a power. So I and when it’s been those and let me mention the Mike linebacker guys. You’re right, Ryan. I have to have a backup for that guy because at the end of the day, I love my tight ends. That Mike linebacker means a whole lot more to the success of that football team than a tight end. I don’t care. So whether your backup is we’re going to a spread package, whether you’re backup is I’m putting in a sixth offensive lineman or whether you’re backup is I’ve developed a second guy. I’ve always got to have somebody that’s ready to go in for that, for that Mike linebacker type of guy. If he’s heavily involved in the in the defense, when it’s been that guy, a lot of the times I have, I have told them, especially early in the year when I’m still trying to develop that next offensive lineman. Hey, you’re our third best. Let’s just say offensive lineman. You had a great year in seven on seven and I’m excited about you catching footballs. We are also packing a 60s number in the bag. And if one of these five guys gets hurt, you’re going to change jerseys on the sideline as soon as we can. We’re getting you in there. It opens a lot because there is, you know, until I’ve developed one more guy that’s not uncommon to carry that jersey and say, Look, I’ll. And like you said, I can always, Yeah, you’re right. I can always find a couple of more skinny kids to go out there and at least look dangerous. So I guess a big part of it is feeling like I can develop at Tight end, but I will have a backup ready. And I’m not afraid to take that tight end and put it. Thankfully, I don’t know that I’ve had to do it. I don’t remember the last time I had to do that, but I’ve always let them know we were carrying an extra jersey for you. And if I need you to go to offensive line, so that guy’s always ready to go back if I need it.

[00:39:13] Daniel Chamberlain So now we’ve kind of talked about what a tight end looks like a special to high school level, which is a smorgasbord of descriptions of human beings, right? It might just be a really tough minded running back or wide receiver, or maybe, you know, a lineman size. I know that we’ve had a variation of that that’s so hard to identify.

[00:39:33] Joe Daniel But Simon will always be excited to do it. It’s the receivers that you get to move down there that you got to like, convince them like, No, don’t worry, we’re still going to throw the ball. You’re not just you’re not just a glorified offensive lineman, but yes, you are. Yeah, if you can find in a reasonably athletic, you know, those kids change. If you get a sophomore who just like thins out and grows three inches over the summer, like he was like five foot eight chubby kid. And now all of a sudden, he’s down a little athleticism like, let’s go. You just became a tight end. Right?

[00:40:02] Daniel Chamberlain So now we were just kind of talking this b last play, really, which is great because the time was running and we’re not like stressed for time. It’s amazing. But so how how can you incorporate a tight end into your your scheme right now, regardless what your system is? How can someone do that right now? And I think you have to start with beefing up the run game, even coming out of this year with a flexible and offense. There were still lots of times that just happened to Tight end. There was what we need that one extra blocker or whatever, and I know Ryan doesn’t like that at all. But you know, that’s that’s where we needed it. It’s kind of where we started on is that extra number in the blocking him, whether it be in. All that you’ve just got a better angle on someone because they refused to bump him out or the extra for a combo block or whatever it is. I think that’s one place that a coach can add to their offense and use a tight end.

[00:40:48] Ron Mckie All right. So using the Flex spot like to run a lot of option. Yeah, like ever play us? So were you run outside of your because I know outside of your uses more tight end, right? Erm, I show my ignorance.

[00:41:00] Daniel Chamberlain No, no, no. They they did. We did go outside. We’re more like weak 3-4 when the inside stuff was just getting stuffed.

[00:41:06] Ron Mckie OK, so like I was Batman going, I’m just using the old I know tight flex bone. Paul Johnson style they used. So I feel like you’re judging me right now. Like, How are you going with this? I know that they used, you know, tight ends and stuff. They sometimes sit outside and stuff with the tight end, but predominantly they didn’t use the tight. Was there a reason why, like inside beer was getting crushed? So you decided to put a tight end out there to run it more outside or what?

[00:41:35] Daniel Chamberlain Well, to be honest, I think it was just the next. They were just trying to find an edge somewhere and that was see if we can move a backer out. And to be honest. I mean, we ran a lot of inside of your still with the tight end to that side. But I think a lot of it was just see if we can move someone, get someone to slide and just changing things up, just trying to find anything. It was really the back side backer that was giving us so much crap anyway, but they didn’t have an answer for that. So tight end, it was the answers.

[00:41:59] Joe Daniel That is the answer. I mean, have you ever just bring a tight end into the game when you’re like when you’re a primarily 10 personnel team with high school kids, right? That high school kid spent the whole week lining up in a five right line and you’re playing a 40front. He’s lined up in a five. He’s lined up for the five. I feel like you could just drop a tight end out there, and all of a sudden you got like a three and a night for like a player to just just by dropping that guy out there with the high school kid who’s not expecting it that much. It’s almost like all of a sudden you just threw an unbalanced at him.

[00:42:34] Ron Mckie Yeah, it’s happened. Like, we’ve we’ve done it. We’ve gone. Actually, I’m thinking about Pad three years ago. Maybe we would go trips. Everyone’s split out trips hand down Tight end in the same drive and it would mess them up. And but we weren’t changing our place like it was still, you know, if we’re going trips to the end, everyone’s detached. It would just be a bubble screen with the world where if we brought his hand down, it would just be a flat, but they’re still blocking it like it’s a bubble screen. We’re still reading the same thing. So if you can incorporate that, I think this is just an uneducated opinion. I think you’ll be fine with the tight end. That’s when you bring him in and then out, and he’s got to learn blocking schemes, pass all of this. And then if you’re middle linebacker, he also has to have a little bit of defense and he’s probably on special teams because we’re a high school and all hands on deck. And then, you know, you add in school boyfriend girlfriends or jobs or family, and then and then you wonder why he’s blocking out on inside zone left and right instead of double teaming or whatever it is you, you get frustrated and it’s like, just keep it simple, like if you bring him in, he’s a blocker. That’s all he does. I don’t have him do any passes unless it’s just like went straight down the field or if he’s run, if he’s passing, have them do nothing but passing, and then I don’t have him block because again, I’m not an all world offensive lineman, so I can’t do that. The the the life of a 16 year old is extremely difficult and it will all get easier when they’re adults. They’ll have they’ll be able to handle. I’m going, I’m going to be honest, some of the 16 year olds that I teach Jesus the stories they tell me, I found I’m going on a little side street. I have found that since I’ve been a teacher the past three or four years. The stories they tell me, they make me become a better father because I go home and hug my kids and I’m like, Thanks baby girl, baby boy, I love you. I will never put you through with. I mean, they’re talking about drunk moms and weirdo step dads and all this stuff. And I’m like, Oh my God, what in the world can’t don’t know what to eat? They’re working like 30 hours a day on top of school. And I just go home like baby girl, baby boy love. You don’t have to do that. Thank you and hug him.

[00:44:54] Joe Daniel That does that. That is true, too. That does exist. Just I’m just looking at a way that like the other way, the other thing and this is you tell me if I’m wrong because I’m not. I look at this and I’m like, That’s fair. I look at this and I’m like, What are what are you guys talking about? And I see teams run it. I’m like, OK, tight front people are like, What do we do? A tight front? Like, put a tight end. I agree with you that that to me, is the simplest thing in the world is like if some teams are just just busting you with type one, especially these ones with like four eyes and they’ve got like, it’s like a 33 stack, but the stock backers or yards outside. Then there’s a mike, and then there’s these four eyes and and I’m like, bring in a tight end. Like, That’s. That’s the first place that I’m going with that, and I used to get a lot of I don’t I feel like tight front, maybe tell me because you’re spread guy and I’m not, so we don’t see it as much type front to me seems like it’s kind of come and gone as like the the end all RPO defense or whatever, because Iowa State wasn’t unsuccessful. You know, things kind of ebb, and whoever is good is the has got the answer.

[00:46:01] Ron Mckie Yeah, yeah. Pretty much, yes. Yeah. Said it better myself.

[00:46:08] Daniel Chamberlain Formation wise, you talked earlier, Ron, about going trips and then having a tight end and you’ve got to do with his hand on the ground. You’re getting these 15 16 year olds that change a lot, right? I know something I hated seeing was trips to one side and then another to the other side, like if they go tight end over there because listen, first, you’re trying to put in a 4-2-5. I couldn’t. I couldn’t talk to my corners yet about, you know, corner swapping over to try to cover number two. That’s not a thing. So what it does is I slide all my backers, so I get my rope, my good run defender. He’s out there trying to cover a slot. And then I’ve got a corner of supposed to protect that edge. And that’s not the answer, right? So that’s a tight end scenario that was very advantageous to the offense. Definitely not to me.

[00:46:49] Ron Mckie Yeah. And I do like that. But again, when I and the system are plays that we do, I’m still asking. I got a block and it’s not really a block, right? When he’s over there and the other guys are on the other side, it changes up the route combinations, what’s what? So they have to think. I’m trying not to get that literally, gentlemen. I had guys that had wristbands and it would say swing to the right and those dudes are going to the left. And I mean, I couldn’t make it any easier for them, like it told them exactly what to do, and I didn’t want them to think. So I’m thinking, how can I get them not to think? And when we put all this and again, it, it boils down to they’re just better coaches than me and systems and stuff. I just try to do the simplest thing because I figured I love football. I do it all like, that’s the only thing I think about. Only thing I watch. I mean, I have a YouTube channel. I listen to podcasts, I read about it. I live this and they don’t. So if if they’re not all in like, I want to keep it simple so they don’t have to think about it. And I do find that if you go back and look and this is, I’ve talked my head like our tight ends, made the most sticks because they they’re not fully invested in one they have. They’re straddling that line. And as a young kid, that’s kind of it’s because. .

[00:48:07] Joe Daniel I would agree with that. I mean, our tight ends are never as good to our Tight end are never as good a run blocker as they could be. They’re never as good a route runner as they could be. And I agree it has to be built into your system, like if you have a system that doesn’t, doesn’t rely on tight ends like our system is built around the tight end. Our system is built around the positioning of the tight end, creating that edge. You know, all these things our power relies on there being a tight end, I want a three and a six. And if if you’ve got to if you’ve got a a4tech on front, I want to combo him with the tight end. I want a three and a six or three to nine. If I can get it, it, you know, those those things are important in our power game. The ability to move that guy around and create some sort of a numbers advantage things like Tight end trade high schools don’t see it because nobody’s doing this stuff. Tight end Wing Tight end Wing is probably one of the most common questions that we get defensively. What do I do to a tight end wing? Because what Daniel talked about the formations. So when you’re talking about bringing a tight end, if you’re going to bring a tight end in a package, so if he’s not going to be the centerpiece of your offense, I’ve talked about why I love a tight end in our offense. If you’re not going to be the centerpiece talking about how you can get him involved. Ross talked about ways to get him involved in your in your passing game and keeping it simple there to me in your run game. And let’s say you are bringing in that six linemen or maybe that guy who’s too important to be on the starting offensive line because he’s your Mike linebacker, but he’s also not going to go split out in the slot for you for any reason, and you’ve got that extra guy. You can create packages to create gaps. Just like Daniel talked about, like a tight end wing, creates gaps and creates an issue for some teams too tight. We’ve just been talking about one tight end to Tight end. What are they going to do on the backside of two tight ends the weekend? If you’re playing a 40 Front, the weekend is more likely than anybody to go out there and line up in a nine track because all he ever does is line up in a five deck. And like those things are. I understand that. That’s like, I just want to see if your kid’s dumb enough to do this, like is that necessarily like a great coaching tactic? No. But it’s 20 years of high school coaching. And yes, a lot of kids are dumb enough to do that because they just haven’t. It hasn’t been put on him before. So ways to incorporate a tight end in information packages, doing things that they already know how to do. If you’re talking about that. Extra offensive linemen or, you know, you’ve got a guy that can do this. Maybe you had a guy who was your number, you know, he was one of your top offensive linemen, he got hurt. This other guy started for three weeks. He’s now got some reps under his belt. So now I do have six because the other guy just came back. I can get this guy involved somehow in a package. That’s where I see, you know what we’re talking about here. If it’s not, your system is not your system. But I think there are a lot of ways to incorporate a guy. Incorporate this into a package that can just cause, you know, a single way. I saw I saw Kenny posting something about his single wing package, and I love the single wing package, the single wing package, and he’s a tight end. But that unbalanced single wing that’s a that’s a terror for offensive coach or for defensive coaches to try to figure out what to do. But you need a tight end type body with it to really make it work on the backside. So that’s where I see being able to incorporate that guy into an offense that maybe isn’t using him much right now. .

[00:51:40] Daniel Chamberlain I know that we find small schools is all I’ve been at, and I’ve been to new giants schools. And to be honest, you generally don’t have 11 guys who you can just go put it the perfect position, right? So we often just have to package it to see what does the defense lack or might? We might have to carry a tight end package in a slot package and all that just to see where we can hit them, where they’re weak. It doesn’t mean it’s our strong suit, but we can add that to or we can add a tight end or even two tight right just to see, do they have that next body on defense? It’s going to stop whatever we’re trying to do. So that’s another very good way to use it is just to keep poking holes in the offense. Do you find what breaks .

[00:52:16] Ron Mckie you found that takes up so much time, though, that you’re coming up with all these packages, coming up with all of these things and you’re taking practice time away for what you want to hang your hat on? .

[00:52:28] Daniel Chamberlain And I think that’s why it’s so important to have a system and not just, Hey, we’re going to do this out of one play, like if it is your sixth offensive lineman, he knows the blocking rules. So what are you really adding practice time? Hey, slide over three feet and do it from there. So if it’s the run game we’re talking about and if he is your biggest, most physical receiver, sure, maybe you just visit him the past him, they’re not. Learn anything. What Joe says all time right formations or cheat plays are expensive. So as long as you’re keeping the rules the same and you’re not changing it up, but even if he is, you’re your least effective lineman. He’s still just alignment. .

[00:52:59] Joe Daniel Yeah, I think that’s that’s the big key in talking in. What we’re talking about is a great point. If you try to go in and put in a package that is like, for example, if you know, whatever you, let’s say that you’re a better option team. Just let’s pick something around something that doesn’t run zone and you go to and you go to a clinic and you learn Rick Darlington single wing, where he blocks power counter and like zone and trap and you’re like, All right, I’m going to combine this with our like, you know, whatever offense that you’re running that doesn’t use those plays or I’m going to and I see coaches do this like, Hey, we’re just going to install power counter for this set. No, no, no, no, no, no. Like, if that wasn’t in, I’m not doing so, adding it when when I’m trying to create those formations, I don’t want anybody had to learn a new play. And and you know, we talk about the five minute rule for install. Like, if I put something in, I better be able to get it done in five minutes of practice. If not, we’d better find a new way to teach it or we’re going to throw it out. So absolutely. These cannot be at the expense of practice time that you would have spent on your, on your base, on your, you know, on your base stuff. But just trying to create a different look, trying to create a different feel to your offense. .

[00:54:21] Daniel Chamberlain So leaning more Ron’s world here, RPOs is another way you can put a tight end and you’re into your system. So if you are, you’re you’re pretty run heavy. And, you know, like, much like we were, we were going to get stuffed in the front line. We leaned on to a pop out and we did it from a flex back instead of a tight end. My next step would have been, you know, we always had that initial movement. You’ve always got a running back going and just hit the tight end on the backside right here. Let him run a little pop out. So I think RPOs is a way to kind of tie the two worlds together and let maybe it’s not as spread as Ryan wants to hear right now, but you know you’re still throwing the ball around, especially if you’re a run heavy team. Anyway, it does add that extra little bit for that guy. Hopefully, he’s not just alignment with his hand in the dirt, right?.

[00:55:02] Ron Mckie No, I agree. I think that to me, if I was going, I use a tight end. He’s asking the RPO style because, like you said earlier, it’s easier for the quarterback. Head to our tight end guys. Forget about them and then I’m not asking him to block or I am asking him to block by running the route. So if he runs the route, essentially they cover him, you block them. So I’m using his abilities to his favor instead of saying, Hey, I know you don’t block, you can’t block, but I’m going to have you block and then I’m going to get mad at you when you don’t block. Well, Joe Daniel and I didn’t teach you as an offensive lineman so I think that’s a perfect way to marry both. .

[00:55:44] Joe Daniel I admitted I was arrogant about it. You know, I’m agreeing with you what I know. But like then there’s the question of like where where does a tight end become a tight end? Because you mentioned it, the tight ends that that are, you know, known today is the guys that we talked about in our H-back, right? They can block. But it’s Travis Kelsey and it’s it’s Gronk, and it’s these guys that like they can block. But if they couldn’t pass like my my, you know, as a Georgia football fan, Brock Bowers was like freshman tight end, but he was like the most effective receiver in the offense. And he spent a lot of time split out. When you have those guys, you can spend a lot. Now look, if you have Travis Kelce, if you have Brock powers like, you can do a whole bunch of crap with them, that’s a whole different discussion. But where does he so like incorporating a tight into a tight bunch set, right? The point guy in a tight bunch set? That’s usually our tight end. But then I started putting the title on the backside and doing different stuff with that. We use a nasty split, you know, five yard split, and that’s our tight end. I mean, I don’t know if you use any nasty splits, but like, that’s just getting that guy down in a tight split and seeing what are you going to do with him? You know, and do what? .

[00:57:01] Ron Mckie I said, ok Kyle Shanahan. .

[00:57:04] Joe Daniel But I mean, I don’t know anything about Kyle Shanahan. I he was he was with the Falcons for a little bit. I think my wife hates him because he was with the commanders getting better is that the commanders. OK coming to our commanders, commandos. Yeah, whatever. So I don’t like I really don’t know much about different people. But yeah, I mean, like, how can he how can you use him to manipulate a defensive end in a formation, whether it’s a tight bunch, whether it’s nasty split, things like that, like by go to a two foot split, where do you line up? All right, I’m going to go to a three foot or four foot split and I’m going to a five foot split and I’m going to go two three yards and I’m going to go five yards. Like, where? How wide do you go against that? Did you teach your kid divider rules? Did you teach your defensive lineman 2×2 rules? A lot of coaches don’t, you know, and and that guy’s like, Well, I’m so happy. Head up on the tight end and he still got his hand down. Not just your defensive ends out of the formation. Like, I can run inside zone. You only got five guys left because you’re splitting them out. I mean, yeah, yeah. I mean, that’s going the other direction. But that’s another like, that’s another way is I am splitting him out, but that’s another way to use him. I feel like I can manipulate your defensive end by moving my tight end around more than I could just getting a wide spoke my tackle. .

[00:58:23] Ron Mckie This is just me. I think most like, you’re different because like you live in that world. I think most coaches, when they talk about a tight end, they’re too scared to say to go all in on, or they’re too scared to go the other way and actually run a run first offense. They want to have their cake and eat it. .

[00:58:40] Daniel Chamberlain They want to be the Dallas Cowboys with Jason Witten running the option route. Yeah, I mean, there is a catch. .

[00:58:47] Ron Mckie It’s just they don’t know what they want to do. They don’t know themselves well. And you, you know yourself. I mean, you’ve you’ve been running this system for how long now, like 87 years. You know it inside and out. Yeah, man, I do. You’ve been in this game for a while and you know it in and out. You know how to manipulate and everything like that. Most coaches, they want to spread it. But then they see on TV, they have the tight and the fact they want to do that and they don’t know what to do that they’re confusing themselves and just make it difficult for themselves. It’s like option exactly their dad, but you don’t dabble in option. Exactly. You, you got to marry somebody. And a lot of guys don’t marry anything. They want to play the field. And that is why they’re mediocre unless they have dudes. .

[00:59:33] Joe Daniel 100 percent. Absolutely. 110 percent agree with that. If you are married to a four wide system, then I can see ways to incorporate a tight end just to see what happens. But I would not. I would not try to be 50 50. You know what I mean? There’s there’s absolutely no way that I would try to be 50 50 with it. That’s just me. I mean, I’m glad we. .

[00:59:56] Daniel Chamberlain So we’re going to be pushed for time here. I’d like to talk one more thing about incorporating it, and that is really just using. And Joe, you kind of hit on this a minute ago, but using the alignment of a tight end to draw attention away from your point of attack. So putting a tight end front side, but you want to really you’re truly trying to run it week, right? I mean, which is kind of where Ryan is talking about running the ball with just a five man front anyway. But now I’m just going to see if I can get you to slide linebackers something to get me a numbers advantage or something on the backside. So let’s see how what you guys think about using that and seeing if it isn’t the place where we can marry these two ideas .

[01:00:33] Joe Daniel It’s the idea of when you’ve got a balanced defense, you unbalanced them when you’ve got an unbalanced defense, you you balance it up with with a let’s just say you’ve got a balanced defense, you’ve got an eight man front. I put the tight end and maybe I’ve got my back. Maybe I’ve got a fullback or whatever. Maybe I’ve got three receivers. It does matter in a minute. Eleven personnel. If if I can put that tight end out there and get you and I like this a lot like you said before Daniel Witt, whether it’s a nub tight end on the backside of trips or a tray formation where I’ve got two tight end trips, alignment and seeing what you’ll give me there. But because it’s really I’m balancing it. But most teams, regardless of whether you actually have a tendency to the tight end will over shift to the tight end, and that’s going to give you some numbers away from it in its, you know, again, that depends on your opponents and everything and what they see, if they see, you know, some coaches are more adept to it. If you’re in a place where I always think, like if you’re in a place where everybody runs spread and you’re kind of on the fence, I would go the opposite way. If you’re in a place where everybody runs a wing T and you’re on the fence, I would put four wides out there and I would get great at it. If you don’t have, you know, again if you’re on the fence. So, yeah, I think you can use there’s a lot of things you can do a formations. Most people are going to assume the strength is the tight end. That’s that’s just a base rule. So if you can create that, like I said, I’ll put the left side best guy left tackle with the right handed quarterback. Best guy left tackle second. Best guy left guard. Third, best guy is the center. Some combination. Those are the top three usually, but the tight end over to the right. And then if you’ll shift over there, I’m running behind my three best guys and trying to run stretch left. .

[01:02:20] Daniel Chamberlain And you know, a lot of even what we teach here, we’re talk about here is just simplicity. Keep everything simple. But that usually means high schoolers have like one or two rules to follow. And so that’s really like if you put a tight, they have twins, they have a twins rule, and if they have a tight end, they have a tight end rule. And then you do both like, now, what are you going to do right? You can’t walk the guy down. We’re in Ron’s world and you can hit this dude out here at five yards deep all night long. So I think it’s as defensive coordinator. I hate it because we try to simplify it so much. And then you run into like we’ve talked about or the tight end we were supposed to do now. Simplicity, sometimes it’s great for teaching kids, but sometimes you know there are tendency breakers or rule breakers. The offense can throw at us and I feel like a tight end can be that. .

[01:03:03] Ron Mckie So do you ever have Ron, a there are times where I wish now. I always have the ability to. But again, we’re not great in like, let’s say, five man protection by jumping to empty and you bring six. Like, we’re just not great in that. Or, you know, even if I go with a six man protection, there’s there’s there’s little things that I’m not as comfortable if you’re really, really good, but there are definitely times where I wish bad or I want to be out in a spread in in a 10 personnel and just be be really good at it. You know, have all the have all the different things with our route combinations having have an air raid package rather than, you know, our our fairly basic mirrored room concept is their situation never comes up where you want, like you’re like, wish you could just put some mammoth with his hand down at the end of the line of scrimmage right now. .

[01:03:59] Ron Mckie Yeah, I mean, I would I would be number three full of shit if I didn’t say, I wish I had enough dudes that I could just line up handed to everyone, just mash. I mean, that makes that makes coaching really simple. And I think everybody that does that like I do like the violence and everything. And then I’m going to be honest in another life, I’m probably the biggest wing T helmer there is like straight up one hundred nine hundred Delaware. It’s I don’t know, I keep going back. I say this over and I just go back to the end of the day. What practices first started and kids are not lining up handing the ball to everybody. And that’s even coaches. Coaches aren’t sitting over there and in the other coaches on talking and stuff like that. So I just want things to me. That’s fun and I don’t know, man. I’ve had several times when it’s fourth and sure, and I put a heavy package out there and they get blown up in the backfield and I’m always like, shit, I should’ve just thrown the I mean, I think getting stopped in the backfield when you have your heavy package in is more demoralizing than having your normal offense out there and you throw it for fourth and short and it’s not a completion, you know? Yes. And to me, it’s weird. You know, you will get so much flak from fans if you if you throw it on fourth down and one. But if you go the heavy package and you get stopped in the backfield, they don’t say anything but coaches like Bam. Well, I mean, we put our dudes out there and we still get smacked in the mouth. And to me, it’s like, Well, that was a wasted now because that’s not what we do. And at the end of the. They add, If we get beat, I want us to get beat by team was better than us and we were doing what instead of trying to get cute and hey, let’s put quads unbalanced over here and see what they do. And then it’s like, I don’t know what they’re going to do. Shit. I don’t even know if we’re going to line up right when I do this and I outcoached myself. And at the end of the day, I know you said Daniel simplicity can have drawbacks. I’ll look at the 80 20 principle and the rule. Unlike, well, I mean, abstinence, I’m right. If you gave me those odds in Vegas, I’d be a very rich man. .

[01:06:09] Joe Daniel I think the it holds true both ways. We used to play wing teams, right? And you get them to third and 10 some miracle. You get them like third and 10 fourth and 10. And where they run, they don’t run waggle because waggle doesn’t make any sense on third and 10. Everybody’s playing pass. They they would always run trap like they were always just one trap and see if it pops. And it’s like, of course, everybody in the stands is like, What are you doing? But things didn’t pop a lot because like backers are already flying out deep into bans and defensive tackles or jet and thinking they’re going to go get the quarterback corner flying out. So it goes both ways like and I’m a wing t, I got called out by by Rick Stewart for having the wing t a to z behind me and not being an official member. So mixing the wing T in the area together, you should have. So this should be illegal. The but yeah, the I mean, it goes both ways like you stick to what you’re good at, like you stick to what you’re like, what you believe in and what you’re what your guys are ready to do. And if you do and I’m like, we’re bounced off it like, that’s actually an imbalance is not 50-50. There’s always things we do better and things we do worse, and we’re going to lean towards things. But that’s kind of our system. And, you know, sometimes we do get stuck on a third and short where we were just a straight up double wing like that never happens, and sometimes we don’t have the right answer on third and 10, whereas we were an air raid. It’s like, well, it’s just, you know, just find the right and find the right spot. So there’s, you know, maybe you can be this way and can be that way and we’re somewhere here. But that’s what I see is like. And the teams that understand that and and kind of live in their world are going to be more successful. .

[01:08:01] Ron Mckie And we have to know that the other team’s not 100 percent like they got some dudes out there, they got some smart coaches. They’re going to win some of the time. And I think if as coaches, if we just tip our hand ahead, they got us special. We’re running our stuff. Hey, they got us, you know, we’ll know what to do next time or learn from that. But we always internalize and get pissed off when we think that every time we call something, whether an offensive defensive should be a success, 100 percent success. And it’s not that case, and I find that if you can just learn from those be like, OK, well, I’m going to stick in our offense, but maybe not call that play next time, you know? And how many times when it’s fourth and short do you try to run it and it stopped and you always go back. So thrown up. Good play action. Yeah, or something. Because, you know, subconsciously, we’re always on fourth and short, either run the ball or do a quarterback sneak. We never like. That’s the one thing I like about Miles Davis and how Mommy, you know, they’re they’re weird. They’re counterculture, they’re like, Oh, it’s fourth and short, let’s go long. And it’s like, Let’s take a shot because everybody’s up there. And like you said on the wings, it’s third and 10 where everyone’s going to be thinking they’re going to be, we’re going to be passing. Let’s run the trap and I will stand and die on this hill. There is something beautiful under under center wing to when the trap pops in and everybody’s chasing the buck sweep. And then all of a sudden you see that fullback just and he hits it perfect. He bends it a little bit, and then it’s like 80 yards. Like, Where the hell did that guy come from? There’s something beautiful about that in most windy coaches, those stubborn ones, they just stick with it and they’re just like, This is what we’re going to do. Even when there’s eighty two people in the box, we’re still going to run our thing and the tie back in the tight ends. I think if you’re like you, you live in the tight end world. You know what to do like you. You’ve been in every situation where you have tight ends that can’t catch tight, ends that can’t block but can are that can’t catch but can block. You got the tweener. So you know in your system, OK, this is what we’re gonna do. Personnel wise, this wise formations where everybody else that wants a tight end, they’re not living in that world, they’re just guessing. And when they have mixed results, they lash out, you know, they lose their unhealthy. And then.. .

[01:10:18] Joe Daniel Yeah, I mean, look, I love RPO like, I see all these RPO guys. It is sexy. I mean, it is hot, not the guys themselves, but, you know, plays A.J. and some of the guys. But the thing is, I’ve tried opiates and I like. I don’t live in that world, and I I can’t invest. I can’t take what I’ve got that’s working and be like, Well, screw this, I’m going to I’m going to go invest, you know, two seasons trying to get better at RPOs and let our power go to hell. Like that doesn’t make any sense to me. Like, I have tried to dabble. I’ve dabbled in RPOs and they’ve been OK. Some good, some bad, but really, really, really basic. Like, we would install one like we talked about when we had our RPO episode, like just install one and see what happens with it. It didn’t go through the moon for us in that particular time. That is me. I’ll never do it again. I can promise you that I will, but I can’t become an RPO guy tomorrow because I got too much stuff that I already I already know, even though I love it. I think it’s cool. I also like Double Wing, but you know, what are you gonna do? .

[01:11:25] Daniel Chamberlain Double H-backs .

[01:11:26] Joe Daniel H backs all the H-backs .

[01:11:28] Daniel Chamberlain Well, we have shot our time through the Moon in the words of .

[01:11:33] Joe Daniel We’re doing good for a while. .

[01:11:35] Daniel Chamberlain Yeah, we were. We were smoking. But but so incorporating tight end maybe easier than you think, or maybe very difficult. If you’re going to add it, add it and stick with it. That’s what we learned tonight, right? Live in that world. Don’t dabble in the tight end or the option or the spread. Don’t dabble. .

[01:11:51] Joe Daniel Or if you do, don’t put anything else in, just try the formation just like I do with RPOs. Try the formation now, but don’t change anything. And like, if it works cool, don’t like, don’t, you know, don’t commit time to it if it’s not your thing. .

[01:12:05] Ron Mckie Know yourself and marry freakin off. I mean, stop, stop being wishy-washy. .

[01:12:10] Daniel Chamberlain Just specifically marry the pistol power offense system, .

[01:12:15] Joe Daniel Specifically, marry the Pistol power offense system. .

[01:12:16] Daniel Chamberlain Yeah, at JoeDanielFootball.com or join.JoeDanielFootball.com, where you can join today for a dollar for all access for seven days. .

[01:12:26] Joe Daniel Nailed it, you know, and the defense stuff too look at that .

[01:12:29] Daniel Chamberlain with defenses the 3-4, the 4-3, the 4-2-5 and the 33 stack. .

[01:12:35] Joe Daniel The 3-4 is, yeah, don’t marry a defense. The defense is because defenses are garbage defenses all the same. They’re just numbers. I’m not going to lie to anybody, all of those defenses, they’re just I just change the numbers and reprint the playbook. With everybody split over a half yard or backed up four yards, that’s all. Defenses are just numbers. Marry your offensive system. My defenses are just .

[01:12:59] Daniel Chamberlain I love it, a system. It’s a system. Have a system. Yes, social media. .

[01:13:03] Joe Daniel We got Ron. Plug your stuff too. .

[01:13:06] Ron Mckie Find me on Twitter. @CoachMckie and Mckie is M-C-K-I-E . I don’t know why it’s spelled Mackey but it’s Mckie. You can find me on YouTube just search Coach Mckie. And also, guys, if you’re not on it, I know this is, Tiktok. I’m having a blast at Tiktok Coach Man, I love it, man. All football, I don’t know. I guess growing up, I was always the type of player that would always jaw with the fans and the and the commenters on TikToks are just ruthless. And I like it, and there’s a lot of back and forth. I don’t know, I’m just having a blast on that. So if you’re on the Tiktok, hit me up..

[01:13:47] Daniel Chamberlain I feel like social media is completely age-dependent. So if you’re over 40, you’re probably still on Facebook. .

[01:13:53] Joe Daniel No, no, no. Oh, well, that maybe that’s why I’m not on Facebook. .

[01:14:00] Daniel Chamberlain if you’re in that medium-range that like, I’m not 18 anymore, but I’m not my dad. You’re probably on Twitter. And then it’s like, TikTok is really just it’s it’s so I can’t do it. .

[01:14:10] Joe Daniel I feel so. I’m on Instagram. I’m not on any of those other things. .

[01:14:15] Ron Mckie I don’t know. I’m I’m serious guys. Listen, I know I’m sound like Gary Vee right here, but TikTok is legit. They have more active users than any of the other social media. Oh yeah, they have more watch time than YouTube. They’re coming after YouTube. People are on it all the time. Got some like the algorithm? It’s creepy. Like, I’m not even going to lie like you can. You can train the algorithm to give you what you want. And I have football. I have like comedy stuff and then I have video games, you know, and it keeps me happy. .

[01:14:52] Daniel Chamberlain But what’s your handle on TikTok? .

[01:14:54] Joe Daniel I think I think it’s Coach Mckie again. I can check. Yeah, Coach Mckie. .

[01:15:00] Daniel Chamberlain Okay, so if you looking for me, I am mainly on Twitter. I am @CoachChamboOK. .

[01:15:05] Joe Daniel OK, I am at @footballinfo.

[01:15:09] Daniel Chamberlain and the podcast is @theFBCP on Twitter and I believe there is an Instagram as well. Correct? .

[01:15:15] Joe Daniel There is an Instagram that JoeDanielFootball.com. I don’t spend a lot of time on it right now. I like I want to spend more time on Instagram, so I’m on Instagram. Like, that’s the only thing I’m on and I don’t know. Like because all that I look out on Instagram is weightlifting stuff like that. All right. Yeah, that’s powerlifter, I’m a weightlifter. There’s powerlifters on there, too, but. Yeah, I guess that’s just where I find all of the way. Like the weightlifters tend to post like goofy stuff to Tiktok, like they’ll share their TikToks on because, you know, this is all cross-platform where they’ll share their like Tiktoks. And I’m like, I don’t won’t watch that. Just post your lifts. It’s all I want to see that just that’s it. .

[01:15:59] Ron Mckie All right. I thought we could say this off there. But what’s the difference? Like you said a powerlifter and you’re like, No, I’m a weightlifter. Like, What’s the difference? .

[01:16:07] Joe Daniel The lifts? Oh, OK. So about weightlifting is competitive weightlifting, Olympic style weightlifting. It’s snatch and clean and jerk. Powerlifters compete in squat bench deadlift. OK, so the lifts are different. And then strongman picks up whatever they can find and walks around with random use fire truck and then CrossFit does weightlifting for Daniel, what would you say? Like like, snatch for reps?.

[01:16:38] Daniel Chamberlain It’s like it’s Olympic lifts, but you’re not going your heaviest. You’re going as heavy as you can for as long as you can. .

[01:16:44] Joe Daniel It’s like it’s a better attempt at getting injured like you can get injured in weightlifting. I think, yeah, but CrossFit, you’ve got a much better shot. .

[01:16:51] Daniel Chamberlain Having done CrossFit now, you have to be careful, but I think it’s more agility. It’s more it’s those. .

[01:16:57] Joe Daniel If you want abs, CrossFit is the way to go for sure, 100%.

[01:17:01] Daniel Chamberlain Quit drinking beer, when you do it..

[01:17:02] Joe Daniel I mean, if that’s if you want to commit that much. But yeah, if you want abs, CrossFit, if you want like if you want to just be strong powerlifting, if you don’t know what weightlifting is, you’re just a weirdo. Or if you want to go to the Olympics, I don’t want to go to the Olympics. I mean, I want to go to the Olympics, but I think that ship has sailed. So all right. Anyway, if it’s your first time, if you’re still here, this is your first time listening to The Football Coaching Podcast, my god, you’re a soldier. Make sure you subscribe so you don’t miss any future episodes. We have new episodes coming out every single week on all sorts of different topics. Some of them good, some of them bad. Some of them spiral completely out of control by the end. If you’ve been listening for a while, please go and leave a review in your pod catcher of choice or in your in whatever you listen to that takes reviews. It’s a huge help getting the word out and greatly, greatly, greatly appreciate it. Anything else before this goes? Actually, I’m not even asking. Everybody’s cut off. Thanks for listening to The Football Coaching Podcast. Remember Coach simple, play fast, win.